I have a friend who recently lost her old dog, and she’s in the market for a puppy.
And she’s set on it being a puppy- doesn’t have to be a tiny baby puppy, but no older than say four, maybe five months maximum. Ideally she wants another Weimaraner (her remaining old dog is a Weim), but I’m pretty sure she’d be flexible here. She wants a big dog for certain, but breed and purity thereof isn’t of primary concern.
The catch? Well bred Weims from what I consider to be “good” breeders are prohibitively expensive. She won’t spend that much money to buy a dog. Not to say that she won’t spend money on a dog- she didn’t blink before plunking down her credit card at the oncologist’s for diagnostics and chemotherapy. But she’s not the type of person who is willing to plunk down $1000+ on a dog who is “just” to be a pet.
And I can’t say I really blame her. I wouldn’t either.
But I’m open to an adult shelter or rescue dog, where she isn’t. She’s not comfortable bringing an unknown adult dog home from a shelter to be with her two young kids. I can understand that. A shelter puppy is a potential option, if we actually had puppies in the shelters around here. They’re something akin to hen’s teeth and really you have to be in the right place at the right time if you want to actually get one.
Rescues have them- they import them from down south where puppies are being slaughtered by the litter in some shelters. Yeah, good luck adopting any dog, much less a high energy large breed puppy, from a rescue when you have two small children and no fence.
It’s frustrating. She wants to do the right thing, but it seems impossible. She can’t get what she wants without going to a breeder, but the only real option breeder-wise is a casual, yes, BYBer. Someone who is breeding their “nice” but unproven dogs, not for money, but not to better the breed, either. Someone who is just out to produce nice pets.
And that’s currently labeled “wrong” and “bad”. Don’t support irresponsible breeding! Is it irresponsible to be breeding nice pet dogs when it’s nice pet dogs that are what people are looking for? My friend doesn’t care if her dog is from prime hunting stock or winning showring stock. She just wants a dog who is going to be a good companion.
What’s a person in search of a nice family pet puppy supposed to do?
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This is a fabulous post. I get the not wanting to spend that much money on a pet. You don’t even want to know what a frenchie puppy from the breeder I covet is asking for. (and getting) I guess this is a prime example of why the BYB will never go away. But what keeps me on the path to consider the higer priced breeder is the (hopefully) saved money on vet bills down the road. It’s really a trade off. But it’s hard to argue against plunking down that much hard earned cash on a puppy. I always worry I’ll be afraid to socialize a $3000 puppy as well. It’s bad enough when you get overprotective based on emotions, lets add fear of financial ruin to the mix! It’s almost to bad there weren’t pet breeders who at least did health testing out there. I hope she finds something.
That is a difficult question. Here is So Calif we find alot of puppies in shelters and rescue in the right season, which is basically now. I hesitate supporting the backyard breeder options because so many of those dogs end up in shelters too. A young dog would probably be fine with her kids, and she has room to help mold it. Also we all know that most dogs when placed in a loving environment thrive regardless of age. Good luck.
I think careful selection can prove really beneficial with shelter or rescue dogs.
Like this one sounds like a gentle dog:
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/19305790
It’s definitely not easy to find a really great dog and meet all the criteria of the “responsible/socially conscious” stuff.
Honestly.. our first family dog (a beagle/basset mix) was from a lady who thought her beagle male and basset female were such fine family dogs that she wanted a pup from them, and did keep one and sold the rest. Woodsie was the best damn dog to grow up with! So, while yeah its keeping the cycle of more dogs:unwanted dog ratio going, if your friend is committed to this dog for life whats the problem? That dog will not be without a home.
I dunno. I’m an avid shelter supporter. Amazing family dogs are in shelters. You just have to be willing to meet, spend time with and understand the dog before you adopt esp. with kids involved. And be willing to understand there is an adjustment period.
Best of luck!
I don’t know if this would make any difference as far as price goes (though it might, who knows), but I really really really wish there were people who were breeding specifically for (in this order) 1) health/ structure and 2) temperament (to the exclusion of other stuff.). There is a huge market for Nice Family Dogs who are healthy and come from people who know their shit about breeding and there’s nobody who’s really serving it. I think that way fewer people are actually all that invested in purebred dogs than you might think, and I think a lot of people would be very interested in mixed-breed dogs who had been bred specifically to be nice, low-maintenance family pets. It’s a shame that there’s no temperament standard a la AKC breed standards.
I have a firm belief that often the best dogs are from shelters with an unknown past or from BYB when the owner didn’t know better. Great, amazing, soulmate dogs don’t come just from reputable breeders.
That being said, it’s a slippery slope between a BYB/run-of-the-mill breeder breeding for “pet dogs” and breeding dogs that will end up costing the owner thousands of dollars down the road because of genetic faults that were never considered or cared about by the breeder.
I think (I could be wrong; I’ve only had a passing interest in them) the reasons Weimeraners are so expensive is because of the potential health problems, right? Kind of like Dobermans; they’re ridiculously expensive, but the price is worth it considering all of the health problems a BYB dog could have.
You said she wants a big dog, but breed doesn’t matter; why not go for a less expensive breed? Maybe a pet-quality Labrador?
I know that we are supposed to be all condemning of BYBs, but I do think there are some folks who could easily be labeled as BYBs that aren’t doing a horrible thing. It’s so much tougher to be all judgey when I’m all too familiar with how some rescues are unwilling to look past their rules to see if the individual situation is workable for a dog.
Depending on where she’s at, perhaps she can check with rescues that will consider transporting? I know of a few that are easier to work with in terms of fences and such, and there have to be more of those out there.
if she wants a well bred Weimeraner, and only a well bred Weimeraner and preferably a puppy, she’s not the average person looking for a nice family pet. I assume the responsible breeders of Weimeraners will only sell their pups to responsible people who will do Weimeraner things with the Weimeraner. So she needs to get on the puppy list of these breeders and pray for a miracle. And build a fence; I doubt a responsible W. breeder would sell a dog to someone without a fence.
If she buys from a byb then she will get what she pays for, and no guarantee that the dog will be good with kids.
I don’t understand why you haven’t disabused her of the notion that an adult shelter dog can’t be good with kids.. in fact an adult dog, that can be tested, is the ONLY kind of dog whose behavior you know for sure.
I’ve often wondered about this myself. The usual definition of responsible breeders (people who are showing and winning) have conformation dogs, which are getting exaggerated to the point of serious health problems, or working/sport dogs, which are VERY high energy. The average pet owner wants neither. It is a bit of a dilemma. 99% of dogs are pets. It’s by far the most likely ‘job’ a dog will have. Shouldn’t we be breeding for that?
As long as a breeder is raising no more than a couple litters a year, is knowledgeable about conformation and health, carefully checks out potential homes, and is popular enough to have a waiting list, I’m okay with them. Even if they’re not showing and winning. They’re not the problem. The problem is my @#$(*&# neighbors across the road who have had a spray-painted cardboard ‘Pit Pups’ sign in their front yard twice in the last year.
Sounds like a good time to contact Weim rescue to give specifics about what she is looking for. Also, a great excuse to spend hours cruising Petfinder and Craigslist looking for the perfect dog.
I’d like a really reliable car, with really good mileage, one that comes to me clean and new, with a three-year warranty. There is NO WAY I’m spending more than a grand on a car. Can you imagine! Fifteen or twenty thousand dollars for just a car?? My neighbor has one on blocks in his driveway that he got for two hundred, and it looks just fine.
Well-bred puppies are not expensive. They’re substantially underpriced for what breeders put into them and what you get. But they’re not going to be a couple hundred dollars, or fifty dollars, or twenty dollars, any more than a good reliable car is going to be two hundred dollars.
When I say that, I’m not being cavalier about money. Far from it. We are perpetually stretched and poor. I’ve done pre-breeding payment plans so a puppy is purchased over the course of a year; I’ve done co-owns, I’ve bartered services, I’ve shared dogs. And I have accepted all of the same from puppy buyers. What I’ve NOT done is say that a puppy is not “worth” a certain amount.
One of my good friends, who has been showing dogs longer than I’ve been alive, is fond of saying (when someone says “I want x,y,z dog, but I won’t pay more than this for it”), “Honey, I’d like that too.” All of us who breed also buy. Good puppies simply ARE a price, in the same way that a good car IS a price.
Ah yes, Joanna, as a breeder you buy puppies, but you’re not a casual dog owner. It’s a completely different world. I’m not a casual dog owner, either, and I have pretty specific things in mind when I look for a new dog/puppy. I know there’s no way I’d pay $2000 or more for a dog, so I don’t look at those breeds. I’ll stay with the more moderately-priced Border Collies where I can get what I want for well under a grand.
@Emily – she wants a puppy and she’s set on wanting a puppy. Why shouldn’t she have a puppy? She doesn’t want a well-bred Weim, she wants a Weim. She doesn’t care if it hunts or if it’s a show prospect. Thing is, she probably can get a perfectly nice, reasonably healthy Weim pup from some family somewhere and the dog will have just as successful a life as if she’d spent big bucks on the puppy.
@Mel – I don’t know what the answer is. The thought of dumbing down Border Collies and Pit Bulls to make them more user-friendly for the casual dog owner makes me very very sad, and yet that’s indeed what the casual dog owner wants, and what the vast majority of dog owners in this country are. People cling to the history of our breeds, but the world is unrecognizable in many ways from what it was when these breeds were developed. As our needs change, shouldn’t our dogs change? Isn’t that the whole point of the flexibility of breeds and of dogs- that we breed them to fit our needs?
It’s a complex, complicated issue to be sure.
She can totally get what she wants from a shelter in puppy form, but she’s got to be patient and trust the judgment of the shelter staff/foster parent. I’ve adopted out two dogs who would fit her description in the past 1.5 years, although neither of them were Weims. I would have adopted both out to people with kids, provided they were the right people. Inflexible rescues drive me batty.
I totally understand the fear of the unknown. My mom had the same qualms when we were kids. We ended up with a wonderful, perfect, purebred Lab from a nice breeder. My mom now has two rescued labs who are equally awesome and would have been fine with us as kids. I’m of the mindset that adult dogs are more knowable than any puppy, but I know some people aren’t.
Me personally, I would say start contacting Weim rescues if she’s dead set on one and will be patient. But that is me, and I am dead set on rescue.
As for the “dumbing down” of certain breeds… I can only really speak to pit bull dogs, and even then I can only really speak to the shelter variety, but I don’t think it hurts to have people breeding different “strains” of dog, as it were. Up here we have lots of little gamedog typed pit bulls – small, very athletic, high energy dogs – but we also have the bigger, heavier, mellower ones (not quite the American Bully tho). I like both!
To me, there are certain distinctions which separate so-called BYBs from one another. I don’t even like the term anymore to be honest. But a breeder who does not screen buyers is not someone I would recommend or buy from. Same for a breeder who has not tested her stock for known genetic disorders in the breed. Also, some form of disclosure/guarantee/compensation should be offered up front if the puppy develops said disorder. Another essential is a contract stipulating the puppy must never be taken to a shelter and an offer regarding how the breeder will help should rehoming become necessary. Breeding to produce nice family pets *is* improving the breed to my mind. We need more of those!
For your friend, has she considered looking for a puppy from a shelter online and then trying to arrange transport? There seems to be more and more of that going on these days. There are regular transports from the south to northern destinations and maybe she could get a shelter puppy on one.
I know that technically people who breed family pets are BYBs (if they aren’t intending to further the breed, etc)… but I have a hard time calling them such. Lola is technically a BYB puppy then, from a friend’s rescued bitch and a working JRT at the farm her father works at. She cost probably a fifth, maybe even a tenth, of what a perfectly well-bred JRT would cost.
Would I change her, or the fact that I bought her? No. I didn’t support some mass production of dogs – the family bred Molly once, and she’s now due to be spayed. The family used the money from the puppies (who cost about £120 a pup) to spay her, and to raise the pups, give them their first shots, etc.
I definitely don’t agree with BYBs wherein the dogs in question never even get the chance to live as dogs, but ‘BYBs’ where the dogs are good family pets, and the family wants to help other people get the same for a decent price? Yeah, I don’t really have a problem with that. Sure, I could have gone to a shelter, but I wanted a puppy, and as an eighteen year old student I simply don’t have the money to buy a £500-600 pup. That’s just the way it is.
Excellent post!
All that the attacks on BYB types are little more than a kind of protectionism for the elite breeders.
Rather interestingly, there was a study of Scottish terrier mortality– very large n study– that showed that conformation bred dogs were not producing healthier dogs. In fact, it may actually be possible that choosing a backyard bred dog might increase the probability that the dogs live longer. Why? Because backyard breeders are by definition not tight breeders. Almost all backyard bred dogs are outcrossed. Even if the parents aren’t “proven” or tested for health issues, that alone increases the likelihood of greater diversity in the MHC genes and creates a lower likelihood of a dog being homozygous for deleterious recessives.
Here’s the study:
http://www.tartanscottie.com/pages/GSM_2005_Health_Survey_Report_1column.pdf
All hail backyard breeders!
They are the reservoir for much of the genetic diversity in so many breeds that is being lost as people tightly breed for conformation and performance titles– and continues to disappear as whole breeds become concentrated around a couple of super sires.
I think there are a lot of market forces here that make for strange pricing. Many breeds are on the rare side, some are controlled by only a few breeders, and not many breeders do so in respond to demand for puppies, rather they breed for their own interests and the pet puppies are just “cast offs” from those plans.
Price doesn’t mean quality, it also means rarity. As you pointed out, a top end Border Collie sells for a fraction of what some other breeds are sold for without papers, testing, from a back of a truck, etc.
I think this has to do with certain breeds being more rare in population than their public awareness is. And many of those breeds have but a few show breeders controlling most of the gene pool. And they price fix.
Plus, litter sizes are generally getting smaller across the board.
The question you ask is a great one, the answer long and complex. But my first piece of advice would be to drop the breed requirement and consider similar dogs that are perhaps from breeds with better prices for the same quality dog.
The truth is that people with a hobby that’s important to them are going to breed dogs to fit that hobby and that often doesn’t include temperament. I put Temperament even above health in my decisions to breed, but I’m breeding for companions for life, not for my next prospect for some sport or show. The cost? A small fortune, very little of it recouped from selling puppies and stud fees.
A friend in Northern California just got a puppy a couple months ago through weimaraner rescue, so it can be done. However, I also agree with EmilyS that if what your friend wants is specifically a weimaraner puppy, that’s not a generic pet dog request. You say she doesn’t want a well-bred weim, she just wants a weim, but weims are an uncommon breed, not one of the standard breeds or mixes people who just want a medium/large pet dog are usually looking for. If what she wants is a pet-quality large breed puppy, she’ll have some cheaper options for well-bred healthy puppies looking at other breeds besides weims.
I also agree with the more general point that it should be overall easier to get a healthy pet puppy with a solid temperament, but it seems a bit excessive to demand that someone should be breeding relatively rare breeds of puppy for the pet market, with sufficient attention to temperament and health, at a low cost. That seems very different from a more generic wish for cheap, healthy, nice pet puppies to be available, perhaps in small, medium and large and with short or long coats (without regard for specific breed).
Not all dogs from a sport dog litter are going to be too high-energy for the average pet owner. I have two German Shepherds from impeccable working lines. One I selected because I wanted a working dog, and he definitely needs a job, but the other is beautiful, smart, and is equally content to either play fetch or hang out on her dog bed with a bone. And the nice thing about sport/working dog breeders is that they are way more concerned with physical soundness. I wouldn’t have a GSD from US show lines.
And I have one pet Doberman from a breeder who sells her puppies cheap. I paid more in vet bills on her the first year or two I owned her than I spent on my working GSDs *combined*.
Yes, it’s true–if she doesn’t want any assurance of structure, temperament, health, longevity, or breeder support, she can get a cheap dog. What a breeder must do to reliably create even one of those will push the puppy into a “high” price bracket, because advertising it requires proving it and making it predictable. But for me then the question asks itself: if you don’t care about structure, temperament, longevity, health, or support, why on earth are you not rescuing? If the answer is “because I don’t want to,” but you’re willing to put money in the pockets of a poor breeder purely for the convenience of getting a puppy in the color you want (which is all she’d be getting, since she’s left behind any assurance of all the things that make it a Weim because she doesn’t want to pay for them), then she’s making a bad decision. And maybe that’s what you need to be strong enough to tell her.
Why not rescue? Because rescues make it hard as hell to get dogs from them?
As much as rescues are idealized, sometimes it’s not possible to get a dog from rescue because of the stringent requirements they have. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it does weed out otherwise good owners for something as simple as having an unfenced yard. When I was looking for an australian shepherd/mix, I first turned to the rescues in my state and the surrounding states. And the one thing I continuously came up against was the requirement by these rescues to have a fenced yard. My applications were turned away again and again because of that simple fact. I understand where they are coming from; aussies are an active breed, who need lots of exercise. But a fenced yard isn’t the be-all, end-all of good ownership and it isn’t and shouldn’t be impossible to own an active breed without one.
well, if she CAN get a Weim puppy from someone, what’s the problem? It will be from someone who won’t necessarily have done any health tests, thoughtfully considered lineage and genetic issues when breeding, probably won’t give her any guarantees, won’t examine her and her home. But the puppy will be cheap and of the breed she wants, which seem to be her criteria.
People can’t have it both ways. If you want some kind of guarantees (though of course there are no guarantees, really), you’ll have to find a good breeder and pay her price. If you don’t need guarantees and price is an important criteria, but you don’t want to go completely random, then there are plenty of good rescues and public shelters that do evaluations of their “product”. Yeah, purebred rescues can be strict. Tough.
And if all you want is a nice puppy with a high probability of a great temperament, find the best 2 intact dogs in your neighborhood and breed them. That’s how people got their dogs in the old days. Of course, there’s that little problem of what to do with the puppies that didn’t find homes. Which is how we got where we are today, killing x millions of animals each year, eh?
Yes that fence requirement is ridiculous. When I first started out in akita rescue years ago I lived in a third floor apartment with my dog. I didn’t even qualify to adopt from the same group I was helping! Thankfully that group abolished the fence requirement in time. I sort of understand why they require fencing but I know there were studies done somewhere that showed homes with fenced yards had a higher incidence of housebreaking issues. Because the owners put the dog outside and didn’t TEACH the dog what they wanted! Dogs end up in shelters for not being housebroken remember. So some groups dropped the requirement. Having a fence does NOT mean the dog will be exercised appropriately nor given enough attention. If anything not having a fence can mean MORE training is done because of the need to take the dog for leashed walks. Just my two cents on the fence issue.
I think rescues should go case by case with that requirement!
I wanted to come back and note that, while I got a bit sidetracked before by the specifics of your example, I absolutely agree with the more general point that small family breeders, who sometimes get labeled backyard breeders can often be breeding good pet dogs, and that the current way that dogs are bred does not overall make it easy for people looking for pet puppies (who are of course the majority of puppy buyers).
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“She wants a big dog for certain, but breed and purity thereof isn’t of primary concern.”
If she friends some crossposters on Facebook she will get urgent listings from dozens of shelters in the south looking for homes for puppies before they kill them. Most of those shelters have few expectations of adopters. Adoption fees, vetting and professional transport would cost her less than most puppies from breeders, and she’d be saving a life.
I agree that $2000 is a high price for a pet puppy–unless a breed is extremely rare, she should be able to find something more affordable.
Another option is for her to find a nice Weimeraner breeder and say what she’s looking for and ask if there are any nice pet puppies that might be available at a discount–this might be a puppy that isn’t a good show-dog option or it has some significant flaw that is unlikely to affect the dog’s overall health–such as an overbite or underbite or a retained testicle.
If she’s willing to pay something–just not an exorbitant price–then it should be possible to get a puppy from a responsible, probably small-scale, breeder.
Not sure if puppies are/would be available but you might try this Weimaraner rescue. They may even have a solution.
http://www.weimrescue.com/prod/Nashville.aspx
I have not read all the comments, but I got Kasey at around 8 weeks from North Shore Animal League on Long Island. And we went there because getting a puppy from a foster or a shelter around here (Bucks County) is nigh on impossible if you don’t have a “perfect” house and you ::Gasp:: have to work during the day. There are plenty of puppies there or at least there were 4 years ago. It was a risk, yes, but he’s wonderful. Most things are are worth it carry some risk.
I’m late to chime in on this one, because it’s one of the topics that always makes me sound like “that” psycho dog person. My main objections to the nice people breeding pets is that so many of them do not do any kind of health testing. If you ask about their dogs’ health, they are often well-cared for and see their vet at least yearly, but they have not been tested for any of the breed-appropriate heritable conditions. Most of them don’t study pedigrees either and thus have no idea if their male and female are in fact good matches for each other in terms of not doubling up on undesirable health or temperament issues.
Our rescue recently adopted an adult mixed breed dog to a family with kids and no fence. He had already received his CGC, but the foster urged that he go to a family with a fence due to his energy level. For a number of reasons, the dog was adopted to the family anyway.
The dog is now being returned. The family claims the dog has turned aggressive, nips, and tries to run away. The trainer went to see the dog and the dog is fine – just not with this family.
There are reasons rescues have the rules they do. While I can understand it’s frustrating to the families who can’t get the dog they want, it’s equally if not more frustrating to take a chance on these adoptions and have the puppy returned eight or ten months later, obviously never having been trained and rarely exercised.
Rescues are in it for the benefit of the dogs. If we hurt some feelings, so be it. We’ve invested our time, energy, money, and heart in rescuing, vetting, housing and training the dogs. We’ve had a lot of dogs and adopters come and go, and we’ve seen what works and what doesn’t. Obviously there are no absolutes, but we’ve got to go with what we’ve seen in the past.
I personally have struggled with the issue of whether adopters that we turn down will then buy from a backyard breeder. I don’t have a good answer to that, other than try to educate people on responsible ownership so that they can be good owners no matter where they get their next dog. But I’m not going to sacrifice a dog I’ve rescued to people I’m not comfortable with to prevent them buying a dog elsewhere; I have a responsibility to my rescues.
Here’s my hangup with that, though- that family failing does not mean this family will.
Yes, I understand that rescues are in it for the dogs, but I still have that disconnect where there are all these dogs who need homes, but families aren’t allowed to have them.
She contacts a rescue, or many rescues, and keeps an eye out on sites like Petfinder. Being able to provide a dog a home is a great thing, but the desire to have a dog does not trump making sure that wherever you find your next companion is not going to support poor practices which cause other dogs to suffer. It’s important to keep perspective here.
Why would buying a dog from a casual family breeder cause dogs to suffer?
Beyond the fact that there are perfectly good dogs in shelters and rescues, and no matter what anyone insists, especially for someone that just wants a companion, those dogs are perfectly fine and deserve to be considered and allowed to live?
That depends on what you mean by casual. No health testing, no proof that in some way, these dogs meet standards that show they are going to contribute positively to the future of the breed, being raised by a breeder who is going to properly socialize and start them on positive training so that by the time they are 9 weeks, they are ready to go home, and on and on and on. It takes a lot to be a responsible breeder, even if you just want to call it casual. Breeding shouldn’t be done casually, in the sense that it should be done any different for someone who isn’t titling all their dogs, it’s entirely too serious an endeavor when we’re talking about lives on the line. Lives trump greed. Every time.
Your friend is well-meaning but lazy. She should get on Petfinder and start looking. I see the kill lists for NYC Animal Care and Control and there are sweet puppies on there all the time who end up in landfills. I get emails of litters in places in the south who have 48 hours before being gassed. She can go straight to a municipal shelter and adopt without going through a rescue. There is really no need for anyone to go to a breeder when great family pets are killed every single day in shelters.
Where does your friend live? If you want I will start sending you emails of avail. puppies and you can forward to her.
I also vote for Petfinder.com. Great resource for any kind of dog and they work mainly with shelters & rescues – not breeders. Working with a shelter here in St. Louis, I know we have buckets of puppies! Rescue a preggers mama and you get a crap-ton of puppies! The fun part is guessing the breed since dad’s not around. A friend fostered what we thought were pit bull puppies and adopted out the “runt”. Uh, that turned out to be a great dane mix. No guarantees on breed, but sometimes if you meet mom, you can get a good guess of general size & temperament. (Note: all our animals are spayed/neutered before being adopted out, but if they come in pregnant, well, puppies happen.)